The Extended Mind: How Movement, Gesture, and Connection Deepen Coaching Presence

In this episode of The Coaching Book Club Podcast, Christy Stuber and Ken McKellar explore The Extended Mind by Annie Murphy Paul—a compelling look at how thinking extends beyond the brain and into our bodies, environments, and social interactions.

Whether it’s tuning into physical sensations, noticing client gestures, or walking in nature to spark creativity, this book offers a fresh lens on embodied coaching. Christy and Ken share their favorite insights and real-life coaching reflections on:

• Why gestures can reveal deep, unspoken ideas
• How movement activates insight for both coaches and clients
• The powerful role of thinking with others in supervision and peer groups

If you’re looking to integrate more somatic intelligence, curiosity, and creativity into your coaching, this episode is for you.

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Transcript

Christy Stuber: 0:11

Welcome to the Coaching Book Club podcast, the show that empowers coaches through books. I'm Christy Stuber here with my friend and co-host Ken McKellar, and today we're talking about The Extended Mind, the Power of Thinking Outside the Brain by Annie Murphy Paul. This book challenges the idea that our brain is the sole source of our thinking. This book explores how our minds extend into our bodies, our physical environments, and our social interactions. And here's what you can expect in this episode. First, we'll talk about why this book matters to coaches like us. Next, we'll share three key takeaways. Finally, we'll connect these ideas to real world coaching challenges, and they can help us to be more present, confident and creative with our clients. Whether you've read this book or it's brand new to you, you'll leave with new ways to strengthen your coaching practice. So let's get started. Hey Ken. How you doing? How

Ken McKellar: 1:08

doing? All right. Doing all right. Thank you for asking. Listen, do I talk with my hands? Do I do I I don't do, I, I, I like to, like, when I get really animated, you know, go upstairs and please your room. That right. But just natural talking. I, I'll talk my hands, but if I, if I talk my hands, then I'm gonna remember things a little bit better, a little bit differently. Be a little bit more. Straight of my thinking. Right. That's, that's, that's what ex that's what extended said.

Christy Stuber: 1:45

I cannot wait to dive more into that takeaway. 'cause I loved that one so much. Yeah. Um, also, Ken, as you were doing that, I was imagining you cheering for your football team.

Ken McKellar: 1:56

I'm gonna guess you

Christy Stuber: 1:57

use your hands a lot at that point.

Ken McKellar: 1:59

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes. WVU, just in case you didn't know. Okay. Go Eagles. All right. You know what? If you read this book, you are gonna come away with the hour between dog and wolf. Where your mind or what, where you go. There you are. The body knows the score, thinking fast and slow mindset. I mean, like, there's so much that bridges out of this thinking that she has done the research on as far as to come up with the, the concept. Um, that was just fascinating. What, how did you get the idea of this book, where his book come from?

Christy Stuber: 2:52

Clare Norman. Recommended this book on our LinkedIn as one of her favorite books to read. And so we decided to jump on that recommendation. And you're right, the research she does on um, thinking is comprehensive. I like how she put it into three different sections about, um, our bodies, our surroundings, and our relationships. So before you and I started recording today, I went and took a walk to practice. One of the things that she says, which is a little bit of exercise, can help with our thinking. Um, and I tried to look at all the trees on the walk 'cause I wanted to get as much nature in as I could. So we'll see how it goes. We'll see how my thinking goes from this, uh, recording today.

Ken McKellar: 3:34

No. That's one of my biggest takeaways is the, the movement twofold. One for myself, reminding myself that sitting here trying to figure out probably there's another way, and getting around and moving or riding a bike or doing something physical would start that creative energy. Matter of fact, uh. Clare. Norman actually talks about that in her book as far as, um, movement and, and energy. So I like that and I said twofold. And the other is, is around kids. Right? And movement. I like my kids to be still and quiet. I'm just playing people, just joking, joking, joke, stop. Right? But how, how valuable movement is. Is it in human beings? Right?

Christy Stuber: 4:36

It's evolutionary.

Ken McKellar: 4:38

Yeah.

Christy Stuber: 4:39

Right. We, we were a, we were a species that was on the move for a long time until very recently. And so it makes sense that our learning, it's connected to movement and that, um, goes into deeper learnings for us overall. We talk a lot in coaching about thinking with our body and trying to help our, our clients notice that and maybe us noticing what's coming up. That was my first takeaway, which I think connects with yours. Um, and it's what makes coaching human right. AI can't stop and say, oh, I'm noticing as you're talking that my chest is getting tight. What do you make of that? Uh, doesn't, doesn't happen that way and. So developing this new awareness, I think is what helps our clients tap into deeper wisdom and knowing than just the words. Ken, I'm realizing as I'm talking to you right now, I'm using my hands a lot too. Yeah. Gesturing I, which goes my second takeaway, if it's okay. No, keep. I just love this section so much. 'cause she says that, or the research says that there are most advanced ideas appear first in gestures before we find the words.

Ken McKellar: 5:55

Yeah.

Christy Stuber: 5:56

And I feel like that's what I'm doing right now. I'm trying to integrate all this reading that we did with this book and I'm using my hands to try to get deeper with it. They're really active right now. How do you think about gesturing and coaching?

Ken McKellar: 6:14

Uh, really the signal. I mean, as you see people, the communication back and forth. Uh, I mean, you know what I like? What did it say? What did it say? It said something along the lines of, you feel it first, then you think it. Versus thinking it and then feeling it.

Christy Stuber: 6:44

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ken McKellar: 6:47

So if that, if we're pertaining to coaching, we're thinking about coaching, I'm thinking there's a lot of times that I feel stuff like in the coaching session, you know, I mean, I may not know what it is. I used to always call it my spider senses. I mean, I had it, I I, if it's a little bit too quiet upstairs, you know, like. I know that's man, but that was my spider sense. There's something not right upstairs. Right, because you feel it. Then you go upstairs and you see one of the kids hanging from the bed. Right? You get their foot out and get 'em down and says, don't do that back downstairs. But you felt it first, and it's, and it's in coaching. A lot of times you're like. I'm not sure the question to ask, but there's something, uh, whether it needs a space, whether I need to say, say more, but there's just something I, I, I feel it. Right. And before I say it, so that whole, that's a sensory chapter, but that whole chapter, um, that kind of hit along with the gestures, like the movement. Those are my thoughts.

Christy Stuber: 7:59

Yeah. I, I, uh, well, I have nothing else to add that what you said was brilliant. Uh, was there another takeaway that you had,

Ken McKellar: 8:09

uh, what'd you call it? What'd you call it? Groupthink.

Christy Stuber: 8:15

Mm-hmm. Thinking with others.

Ken McKellar: 8:17

Yeah, I mean, I think that is aligned with Nancy Klein's work. Um, I think that is in line with what we do as coaches. I mean, giving the other person to, to continue that momentum. Momentum or give 'em a space to, just to process their thought. Um, I said this by accident to one of mine. Colleagues. I said, you know, we want to provide an opportunity for people in coaching to get on the other side of that disruption because we have, we, we encounter so many disruptions in our lives, whether it's the phone, whether it's the email, whether it's somebody stopping us from talking, whether it's our own internal dis disruptions, right? We rarely have the opportunity. To get on the other side of that disruption or interruption to see what lies there.

Christy Stuber: 9:25

Yeah. Yeah. She says, um, in the book, she says, when we think socially, we think differently and often better than when we think non socially and by socially. In this sense, she means with others. When we're thinking. Certainly we experience with clients all the time. I agree with you about also group mentoring, group supervision, which I, I just love so much because I always talk about this magic that happens, especially in supervision. You know, I'll come into supervision with a specific thing that I wanna focus on, and I will leave with so many different ways of looking at it that I never would've come up with on my own. Or if I participate as a peer in supervision listening to somebody else. Get something that I take away from it as well. So it feels like when we're with our peers, with our other coaches, our insights will expand beyond what's possible, just even one-on-one. What did you wanna add to that?

Ken McKellar: 10:23

Well, it's like the new competencies. Did you get a chance to pick a peek at the. Not the new competencies, but they, they revamped the competencies. They've added five new sub competencies and, and added a little bit on to 11 other current competencies.

Christy Stuber: 10:42

Mm-hmm.

Ken McKellar: 10:43

Well, had the opportunity to talk about that with a group, and it was fascinating, the expanded thinking as a result of that. Competency 11 point 11 where they added knowing, um, in there, and we were talking about what that means. And that was really educational for me because, you know, it went from just knowing as share your knowing with the client, like telling them that, you know, give advice and that kind of stuff, right. To all different kinds of. What that may look like or how that may show up to the group coming to a, a place where, you know, how do we make sense of this in a coaching context, right? No one is definitely not giving advice. So how do we make sense of this? And everybody's giving perspectives just ex expanded or extended the thinking. You laughing? I'm be using my hand right

Christy Stuber: 11:52

there. As he was being expanded. That was amazing. You may have start putting this stuff on YouTube. Um, yeah. I mean that I, the new comp, the new words and the competencies, especially around knowledge, to me connect exactly with this. That knowledge isn't just knowing. It's also sensing and sharing. So how are you gonna be applying what you learned from this book in your coaching practice?

Ken McKellar: 12:23

Oh, man. I mean, there's so much, I mean, there's the movement. So I'm gonna move around. There's the suggest, there's the gestures. So I'm not gonna be scared of my gestures anymore. It's gonna be who I am. Walking out in space in nature. I mean, there's so much. I mean, thi this is one of those books that, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna do this book like I do Clare Norman's book since she introduced it to you, who introduced it to me. Take one chapter at a at a time and just embrace it one chapter a week and just embrace it. So that's what I'm gonna do first, because just the movement alone aspect of it, I love that. But it also gives you really concrete things to do. Right? But like you said earlier around having things make sense, I want to understand it and want it to make sense to me. So embracing the whole book all. What I'm going to do is I am actually going to, okay, so what I'm taking away from this book is movement. Like how movement encouraged thinking. I'm gonna learn more about that and. Gestures and sensations. So it's one of those things that I'm gonna do kinda like I do Claire Norman's book and just take a chapter and read it, embrace it again. So go through this book again, each chapter one by one, and just embracing it into not only my coaching, but also my life.

Christy Stuber: 14:15

I have two things that I'm taking away. One is about gestures. 'cause I feel like I've been taught not to use my hands when I talk and I've had clients come to me and say, I've been told when I'm presenting not to use my hands. I'm like, why, but why were we taught that? What, what is the issue here? And so I'm gonna embrace using my hands. I'm also gonna notice it when my clients are doing it as a sign that there's something brewing, maybe that they, if I question, might create some new insights and new learning. And the other takeaway is an appreciation for you and for everybody who listens and supports this podcast. In the section of the book about thinking with others, she highlights the benefit of teaching to helping us learn. And what I've realized is that I read a lot, it's how you and I are talking so much. I don't always take in what I read. I'm incredibly grateful to you for partnering with me on this, Ken, and to those who have given us this space to talk about all the books we read, because I learn more as you and I talk about it together than I ever would if I had read this on my own and then put it away on my bookshelf. I never would have picked up. These new ways of looking at our coaching practice and craft as I have, so I'm incredibly grateful to you for that. Thank you.

Ken McKellar: 15:55

No, thank you. I, I echo that 100%.

Christy Stuber: 16:00

Great. Well, that wraps up our discussion on the extended mind. We've covered some powerful insights from tuning into the wisdom of the body to noticing gestures, to shaping and learning. We've covered some powerful insights from tuning into the wisdom of the body to noticing gestures and learning socially. We hope these ideas have sparked new ways for you to support your own thinking and your clients. Thanks for joining us today. I. If you enjoy today's episode, make sure to subscribe to the Coaching Book Club podcast on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode. And connect with us on LinkedIn for even more insights and updates about upcoming episodes. And if you have a favorite book that you want us to consider, one that's impacted your practice, message us. It might be featured in a future episode. Thanks for being part of our community. Thanks for giving us this space for learning. And until next time, happy coaching.