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The Coaching Book Club Podcast
Wellness by Nathan Hill: Coaching Insights from a Big Juicy Summer Read
In this episode of The Coaching Book Club Podcast, Christy and Ken dive into Wellness by Nathan Hill — a sweeping work of literary fiction and an Oprah Book Club pick from 2023. While it may not be a traditional coaching resource, Wellness offers rich insights into human behavior, identity, and the stories we tell ourselves — all essential territory for coaches.
Tune in to explore:
- How fiction can reveal truths about the coaching relationship.
- Why every client’s version of reality is a shifting story.
- The power of curiosity, presence, and humility in coaching.
- What “the meaning effect” teaches us about value and transformation.
This episode invites you to rethink how we show up for our clients and ourselves — with more compassion, less certainty, and a deeper trust in the process.
Whether you're heading on vacation or staying close to home, Wellness is the big, juicy summer read you didn’t know your coaching practice needed.
Welcome to the Coaching Book Club podcast, the show that empowers coaches through books. I'm Christie Stuber here with my friend and co-host Ken McKeller. And today we're talking about wellness by Nathan Hill, a literary fiction novel that was selected for Oprah's Book Club in 2023. It's an epic exploration of love, identity, wellness, culture, and the complicated stories we tell ourselves to make sense of our lives. Here's what you can expect in this episode. First, we'll start with a quick overview of the book, what it's about, and why it matters to coaches like you. Next, we'll break down some key takeaways that stood out to us and share how you can apply these insights to your coaching practice. Finally, we'll explore how these concepts connect to real world coaching challenges and help you build confidence, tackle imposter syndrome, and grow as a coach. Whether you've read this book before or are hearing about it for the first time, you'll leave with actionable tools to strengthen your skills. So let's get started. Hey Ken, how are you?
Ken McKellar:Nathan. Nathan. Nathan. Nathan here. All right, so we're taking a novel and we're applying it to some coaching insights. This is a lot like my. My series, coaching Insights From Life, which I'm actually turning into a book. So this right here was right up my alley. Like reading some of this stuff and seeing how it applies to life, it was very easy.'cause like you said, at the top, it takes you on a journey from, uh. Ooh, I see her over there, but I don't wanna talk to her, to kids, to marriage, to long-term marriage and the things and the complexities that come with that to parents and elderly parents. All right, Mr. Hill, I see you.
Christy Stuber:Yeah, I, this book was recommended by a coaching colleague. Um. It's our second fiction book, which I love that we did. And I did choose this book for this time of year because I feel like it's summer. People want like a big juicy book to, you know, to really sink into. And this is a big juicy book. I really felt like it spoke to me as a coach as well. Um, what do you think was meaningful about the book for you, Ken? Um.
Ken McKellar:What I really like about the book, it kind of merge fantasy and reality. So although it was, uh, a novel, there was a lot of factual stuff that. I had the opportunity to research and Google like about, I mean, just a lot about, there's so many, you know, I mean, one was about the toddler and the relationship of the toddlers. These are like dropping like little things like, um, you know, there's a conflict between toddlers and the parent 27 times per hour, something like that. It was some outrageous number. I don't think that was the number. And so. I went to my son's house and I was like, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Okay. All right. So that to me was really cool that I was able to take this and learn some stuff. Lot, lots of stuff.
Christy Stuber:I, I am really resonating with what you said about fantasy and reality, because I felt like for me. That's what was intriguing about this book was this idea that there's sort of a, a magic answer to a problem in that maybe it's through a research study or maybe it's through something else and, and what I experience sometimes in coaching where people want me to give them the magic answer and there reminder that there is no. One magic answer. It's all dependent on, you know, who we are as humans and how we're experiencing the world. So if I was to like, summarize this whole book into one line, I feel like that was it. It's not, there's no one easy answer. That human existence, uh, relies on us being human and experiencing things and questioning it and exploring it. Um. I'd love to move to some of our takeaways, if that's okay with you.
Ken McKellar:Yeah, yeah. Let's go there. However, before we go there. Yeah, because you are right. I didn't think about it like that because if you, as I think about the book, it goes in and out of reality itself. So what Christie, Stu? Scholar that it, it does. And many of the things, many of the conflicts, you know, the interactions between the son, right? Some of it is like realistic, some of it is like not the interactions between each other and how that relationship with the big interaction between him and his dad, that whole thing about the internet and that whole thing was like in and out of like what's real and what's not real. Oh my goodness. Interactions between who you met versus who they are 20 years later in the relationship. Yes. Beautiful. Beautiful. I hadn't thought about that until you just said that shines a whole new light on there. Thank you very much.
Christy Stuber:You're very welcome. Uh, yeah, I think there's what you just said, there's a few different things to align with some of my takeaways. Um, one of the things I just heard you say was, um, about. How we change as individuals. And there's a quote in the book that, um, the main character's name is Elizabeth, and there's a quote that says, Elizabeth should have seen it coming. She understood how many people a single person could over a lifetime be. And it makes me think about both my clients and myself and how we are different people at every single moment in time. I'm not the same person I was when I started the conversation with you today as I am now because I've had new things happen that my brain is trying to make meaning of trying to file away into different stories, and that's shifting now how I'm viewing the world just a few minutes later.
Mm-hmm.
Christy Stuber:Um, so I feel like as coaches, our job is to create the space where people can explore that. So that's the first part, like how do I create trust and safety so my clients can explore their selves in all the variations that emerge? And how can I be the aware of myself and who I am I am at different times, and what maybe I can do to, to manage myself to be more consistent and reliable so that I am creating more trust and safety for my clients.
Mm-hmm.
Ken McKellar:Or even allowing trust and safety. I'm doing my part and giving the client the opportunity to do their part as well as feel whatever they wanna feel in this. I'm gonna do everything I can to allow trust and safety, but it doesn't mean it's gonna show up for them. I do everything I can, even with the coaches that are. That I work with to allow this environment of learning. It doesn't mean they wanna come in and learn right now, says, Ken, I wanna learn, but not with you. Not right now, not the second, because I gotta take it in and do my own process
Christy Stuber:and, and how they learned. Our clients, our coaches that we work with ourselves. How we learn at one point might not be how we need to learn at another point.
Right. So
Christy Stuber:thinking too about the contracting at the beginning of each session. Um, you know, there's a question that I think Claire Norman asked, you know, how much challenge are you up for today? Hmm. Right.'cause we're again, different today than I was two weeks ago when I met with you. And I might need more or less knowing where I am in that moment. I'm a different self. Mm-hmm.
Ken McKellar:You know what? Where's Claire Norman located? I'm gonna have to find her and I just need to walk behind her for about a, just about a half an hour because she be dropping gold left and right. I just didn't pick it up. You don't mind you just dropping it. I'll have this. So what
Christy Stuber:I'm appreciating so much about this podcast with you, Ken, is that we, we get to read all these books from all these people. Many who have walked a path ahead of us, some who aren't even watching a coaching path, walking a coaching path, but we're taking what they're saying and then I get to learn from what's been put in front of me and figure out what I wanna take in from that for me. And through our conversations that you and I have, I get to integrate it more into me, so then it becomes more of who I am.
Ken McKellar:Mm-hmm.
Christy Stuber:Thank you. Mm-hmm.
Ken McKellar:No, thank you. Thank you for drumming this up because it wasn't for you. I'll be eating the Snickers right now, and I do not need a Snickers right now. You know, one, one of the biggest takeaways, well, there, I, I had a lot of takeaways, but we're talking about three, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And. That was the part about the whole relationship that Jack and Elizabeth was having with their son.
Christy Stuber:Mm-hmm.
Ken McKellar:And like she was trying to feed him, she was trying to get you, try to do everything to set things up to be perfect so that he would eat, so that he will get all the right foods. Nutrients and everything. And then she was frustrated, irritated when Jack comes in and you know, just takes a picture, gives him a picture, and then he starts eating, the boy starts to eat, you know, and I'm thinking, wow. Coaching insight as coaches. We can offer clients insight or feed them what we think they need, um, or we can offer them guidance or more freedom. But I mean the real on the real, as coaches, we have the opportunity to get out the way and let them inevitably. Take a picture of what they want and walk the journey that, that they want and support them in that and walk beside them.
Christy Stuber:That is really good. It combines two of my takeaways. Um, the first is, there's a quote in the book. Um. Uh, from a date that Elizabeth goes on early in the book and she, the quote is about her date that he's managing her entire experience and she probably, and he probably thinks she appreciates it.
Mm-hmm.
Christy Stuber:And so when you said about Elizabeth and her son, she was managing that kid's entire meal. Exactly how she thought it needed to be based on all the research she had done and as, and assume the kid would appreciate what she was doing. Um, so again, going back to the contracting in the beginning, like learning to understand what to, how do we co-create and experience and not, um, assume what we're doing our clients will appreciate. And then the second part is she assumed he was gonna appreciate it based on. The way she made meaning of the meal.
Mm-hmm.
Christy Stuber:And so she acts automatically and explains it based on her perspective of this subject matter. And then when her husband comes in and he has a different story or understanding about the son and it. It turns out to be re to be, to be helpful, a helpful understanding of what happened. Then the son was able to then eat and they moved past that challenge. But it just reminds me of like how our every brain makes meaning differently about the same thing. And so again, as coaches, if we are making meaning about our clients, but not checking with our clients on what meaning they're making of it, we are creating an experience that may not serve them. And so how do we get curious about our clients', meaning who they're making of a situation.
Ken McKellar:Yeah. And Elizabeth even takes it even farther. She, um, categor categorized that part as being a moment when Jack wasn't her soulmate anymore because of that incident. But you're gonna have to read the book.
Christy Stuber:You love to do this. Yes. She took the storytelling of, oh, Jack knew what to do for the kid, and she didn't. And now it was a new story she started creating about her relationship with her husband.
Ken McKellar:Yeah. Yes, yes. I like the way you said that.
Christy Stuber:Yeah. Give me one more takeaway that you have.
Ken McKellar:Well, the other one, and I was like. I don't know if I wanna say this because I'm gonna go off the rails, so get ready to edit.
Christy Stuber:I'll never edit you. Then
Ken McKellar:the whole conversation about placebo and the meaning effect. The meaning effect actually was a term that came about by Dan. Mormon, Dan Mormon, he had this like the placebo, just not this thing. That's not real. But there is some realness to this thing when people make meaning to it. Now, here it is. This is the one. I was like, Kenneth, don't say it, but here it goes. Get ready to get canceled. So Christie, here's my, here's my thought. I. As far as making meaning or the placebo? Placebo, meaning that, you know, you think because you think it main mainly is happening or it will happen. So a coach coachee somebody, a client, a client. Hires a coach and he pays this coach$500 and he enjoys some success, versus a client that gets his coach through his EAP doesn't have to pay anything, right. Is there the meaning effect that has the opportunity to take place? Folks, I'm not saying it's gonna happen all the time. Come on, stop that. All right, I'm, you know who I'm, I'm talking to you right there anyway. Or because someone paid$500 for a coach that now he's going to prep a little bit different. He may even gain more awareness about. What coaching is, he may listen a little bit different versus the person I was either told to do it or just doing it because it's free may do it differently. Hence because the person I paid so much money may get something out of it, get more out of it, meaning effect.
Mm-hmm. What
Ken McKellar:are your thoughts? I know a whole bunch of people are like saying What the heck is, but go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead and challenge me. I know you got it.
Christy Stuber:I'm not, I'm not gonna challenge you. I think that's right. It's just like perception of value. And so everyone's gonna have their own perception of value. And so if I pay$17 for a thing, am I gonna value it as much as if I paid$1,700 for it? And I think that's maybe what you're saying is like mm-hmm. Is there and, and. And everyone has a different sense of that. So I don't know what what it, what it is for different people. But the other thing I was thinking about was that whole meaning idea. I was thinking about how on Elizabeth's business, they would use a different typeface depending on what business that they were researching, what type of business they were researching that day. And it made me think about what. Like what rituals and what things do we create with our clients to give them a sense of meaning when they come in? Um, I think what I'm trying to say is like when I go to the spa to get a massage, I wanna walk in and have things be like quiet and chill and maybe a little bit soft. And, and that gets my mindset into what's gonna happen. Um. Certainly the value I put onto it in terms of how much I'm paying changes my expectation of the experience.
Mm-hmm.
Christy Stuber:What do we do as coaches and our businesses, um, and our practices to create that for our clients and what do our clients need? It may vary depending on what kind of clients we're, we're working with.
Ken McKellar:Well. Going back to your spa reference. If you go to the spa and you have that experience, everything's quiet, you have the candles and it's everything that you want, then you are walking out of there. I'm guessing. Wow, what a great massage. Versus taking everything being the same except for next door. There's loud music. You can hear people arguing in the back. You're, you're totally distracted. You are walking outta there. A different experience even though the experience might have been the same, but you put meaning in a different place.
Christy Stuber:Exactly. Exactly. And who's to decide what the meaning is? And I guess something as a business owner, how do I decide for myself and, and create that environment so that my clients then will the clients that I want to work with will be attracted to it.
Ken McKellar:Yes, and for me, that's the high five of a coaching relationship. And if you have the trust, the safety, the rapport, the connection, and the respect in that relationship, magic can happen.
Christy Stuber:Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. So. A lot of these takeaways were woven throughout the book. Certainly would love to hear what people have to say as they read the book. Um, let's talk about how you and I are gonna practice some of the things that we're taking away from wellness in our own, in our own coaching practice. And if you'd like to start, or I can start.
Ken McKellar:Yeah. For me it's, it's relatively simple, is a reminder that everybody has a story. And when we are in the midst of a coaching conversation or any conversation for that manner, we're only getting a little bit, we're only getting the representation of that person's complete story.
Christy Stuber:Mm-hmm. Yeah. For me it's this quote that I just loved, um, and the quote is, believe what you wanna believe, but believe gently believe compassionately. Believe with curiosity. Believe with humility, and don't trust the arrogance of certainty. And to me that felt like a, a definition of coaching presence, holding that for myself while listening to my clients. That's my big takeaway is how do I, I wanna like tattoo that on my arm, although it's kind of long because I just thought that was such a beautiful way of saying
Ken McKellar:Yeah. Yeah. Can you send that to me?'cause that I, I'm liking that. Sure. I'm liking that.
Christy Stuber:I sure can. Absolutely. Well, this wraps up our discussion on applying these insights in our coaching practice. We've covered some powerful insights from wellness by Nathan Hill from Why it Matters as a coaching book, to how we can help clients unpack their stories and identities to what presence really looks like in action. We hope these takeaways have sparked new ideas for your coaching practice and reminded you that showing up with curiosity and humility is often the most powerful thing you can do If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure to subscribe to the Coaching Book Club on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode. We'd also love to connect with you on LinkedIn. Follow us for more coaching insights and updates about upcoming episodes. And if there's a coaching book that you really loved, send us, uh, a message we might feature in a future episode. Thanks for being part of our community. And until next time, happy coaching.
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