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The Coaching Book Club Podcast
Yes, And: How Improv Principles Build Confidence and Creativity in Coaching
In this episode of The Coaching Book Club Podcast, Christy and Ken explore the transformative power of improv through Yes, And by Kelly Leonard and Tom Yorton of The Second City. Blending humor with coaching insight, they discuss how improvisational techniques can foster deeper presence, unlock creativity, and shift the way we handle uncertainty in client conversations.
Whether you're navigating imposter syndrome or looking to add spontaneity and playfulness to your coaching, this book—and this episode—offers fresh tools for growth.
Key takeaways include:
- Letting go of the “script” and coaching in the moment.
- Using humor and emotional nuance as coaching tools.
- Turning “I don’t know” into a launchpad for client breakthroughs.
If you're curious how “yes, and” can apply to coaching conversations, this one's for you.
Welcome to the Coaching Book Club podcast, the show that empowers coaches through books. I'm Kristy Stuber here with my friend and co-host Ken McKeller, and today we're talking about Yes and by Kelly Leonard and Tom Yorkton. Two longtime leaders at the Second City, the legendary improv theater. Ken and I are excited to share how improv principles can transform our work as coaches. And here's what you can expect in this episode. First, we'll start with a quick overview of the book, what it's about, and why it matters. Next we'll break down some key takeaways that stood out to us and share how you can apply these insights to your coaching practice. Finally we'll explore how these concepts connect to real world coaching challenges and help you build confidence, tackle imposter syndrome, and grow as a coach. Whether you've read this book before or are hearing about it for the first time, you'll leave with actionable tools to strengthen your skills. Let's get started. Hey, Ken. Hey,
Ken McKellar:how you doing?
Christy Stuber:Good. How are you today?
Ken McKellar:I'm good. I'm real good.
Christy Stuber:Great. Well, tell me about your thoughts on this book and why it mattered to you.
Ken McKellar:Well, I actually wanted to get into an improv after this because it gets you outta your head. I mean, I'm just focused on the now. Taking what is given, uh, that, that reminds me of sitting at the dinner table with my mom and dad and my four brothers, and you put the, you put the, the food on the plate and you eat what's given to you. And if you said, I don't like that, my dad would just say, okay. And he'll take it and put it in his plate. And that said, you didn't get anymore. Right. That's definitely a Okay. And. So it remind me of that, of that space of like whatever's given you take and you run with it. And so this was really rich as far as coaching. I mean, I loved it. I loved it. I love it. If you haven't read the book, please go read the book because it is a yes and,
Christy Stuber:and say yes to the book and go read it.
Ken McKellar:Yes.
Christy Stuber:Yeah, I've, um. I've always been really curious about improv, and over time I've listened to podcasts by people who have improv backgrounds like Amy Poer and Seth Meyers. And I, I started to understand there's a really deep craft behind what they're doing, even in, in their conversations that look spontaneous. It's based on principles. So that curiosity led me to take an improv class here in Pittsburgh starting oh, January. So you took a class? I took two classes. Yeah. What you didn't even share? Well, you, I'm just learning about this all in front of all these people. It was so much fun. So two hours each time we met, it was full of be playing games and being silly and laughing and being present. It was joyful. I smiled the whole time and, and very grounding and so reading, yes. And build on that experience and build on the principles I learned in the class. And also I could see how those principles connect to our coaching practice. Uh, early in the book, the authors say You learn to tap into the part of your brain that so often censors the truth for fear of being judged. Of course they're talking about this in the improv world. To me, it crystallized about what it means for what we do in coaching. Helping our clients notice how their brains are, trying to protect them in ways that keep them stuck. And as coaches, how we get in our own way by overthinking, needing to be right or worrying about it, getting it perfect. So let's dive into some key takeaways that stood out and how they can enhance our coaching conversations. What was a key takeaway for you?
Ken McKellar:Well, the biggest takeaway for me was letting go of the script, just being in a coaching session and letting it flow, just letting it wherever it takes us, and not being owned by the outcome. Matter of fact, I didn't purchase the outcome. I'm not written the outcome, I'm not borrowing the outcome. So the outcome has nothing to do with me. It belongs to the person that's sitting across from me. Now, if I'm there, present with them, the outcome they, they that they get will be special. But I don't know what special looks like because I'm in the moment. I don't know what special feels like because I'm present. I don't know. Becomes a space of comfort. That is what I got out of this book.
Christy Stuber:Yeah. I don't know. Becomes a space of comfort. It becomes a space of creativity, a place to, to build from the, um, in the book they talk about surrendering the need to be right. And I remember in my improv classes, I would, I would have a thought and I'd be holding onto my thought too tight. You could just feel the scene just flop. And then once I was able to let go of it, then you could see the creativity and the joy blossom. And I think about how that can happen in coaching sessions too. For me, if I think I know where this client needs to go, I think I know what needs to happen next. It just stops any forward momentum.
Ken McKellar:I remember my brother, the late great Keith McKeller. We used to have conversations all the time about absolutely nothing, so it could start anywhere. Like the tree just blew a leaf and is floating to the ground, and then he'll say something about the leaf floating to the ground, and then I'll say something about how the leaf, um, impacted the ground and sent little vibrations across the ground. To the Anfield, and then he'll pick up on the anfield and we'll just keep on going like that sometimes for like, maybe an hour, just going back and forth, just laughing at what we, what we came up with. And the biggest thing that kept us going was we didn't have, we had no clue of what the ending was going to be, and that was just so much fun. So it, it remind me, uh, a lot of that is just, I mean, it still talks about, it's about being present and in the moment. Just taking what's handed to you and just going, and you never know because some of the stuff we used to come up with was just ridiculous, but that was okay.
Christy Stuber:It reminds me of something that my improv teacher told me in my class. He said, if what you're seeing partner says is true, what else is true?
Ken McKellar:Hmm.
Christy Stuber:So with you and your brother, like, oh, if that leaf fell and it landed on an ant, okay, then what is the ant? What's true about that ant? And then you kind of kept taking it. And that, that line stuck with me so much. I remember asking to a coaching client, well if that's true, what else is true? And they kind of just stopped. They're like, oh, you know, I kind of, and coaching, kind of check the assumption a little bit. To see where, how that like just strings on a little bit different than what you do in the improv world, but, but same concept of where is that leading you and is that really helping you and where you wanna get to. Um, for me one of the takeaways is about, um, how comedy and humor can help with the change process. So humor allows us to name hard truths that are often very fundamental truths and improv skills. Prepare us to navigate them. And last week, Jonathan Passmore shared an article about the advancements of AI and how right now you can train an AI to, to pass the competencies of the a CC level for the ICF and. What it cannot do, at least not yet, is replicate humor. And so having humor in our coaching sessions is uniquely human and can shift perspectives. I have a friend who's really great at this. She's just very quick-witted, and she'll point out the thing, wait that thing in the room that no one's sort of saying in a way that makes you laugh at it, and then think about it, like see it in that moment. Something I'm trying to bring more into my coaching is how can we sort of bring that in in a fun way, but also helps people see something different? What are you laughing at?
Ken McKellar:I mean, I had to pull human out by coaches. Ken, you gotta chill that out. I mean, you gotta pipe down, pipe down. What's funny about this? No, I'm, I'm just kidding. I, I, I do, I agree with that, that once. You're vibing with somebody at a different level, then a lot of things can come up. I mean, a lot of different emotions that changes and drive his behavior sometimes can come up, show out and direct, right? So I think I agree
Christy Stuber:and I think it depends on what's the purpose of the humor and us as coaches being aware of, am I. For me, I'll speak for myself. Am I dropping humor in because I feel uncomfortable? Am I dropping it in'cause I want them to laugh and to like me? Am I dropping in because it helps them with their thinking and having the awareness of knowing when do I bring this tool in?
Ken McKellar:Well, for me it's less about a tool and just about it just comes up. So. Are good questions though. Is it coming up because I'm nervous? Is it coming up because I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I wanna be like, okay, I get that. But is it coming up because it was just a good space for it? Or is it coming up because the situation is scary, is a little bit, you know, nerve wracking. So maybe a do of a little giggle, little laughter can ease attention. So now we can look at this thing just a little bit different. Be a little bit. Braver as we take a peek at this.
Christy Stuber:Early in my social work career way before coaching, I had a mentor who said, um, while we were viewing a family session, he said, sometimes if you don't laugh, you'll cry. And so laughter it is, um, exemplifying a hard truth that needs to be faced. And it's easier maybe to do it with a little bit of levity then I. With tears. Nothing wrong with tears. Yeah, I was gonna say that. Yeah. Nothing wrong. Some families might not be comfortable. Once
Ken McKellar:in a while I got a little Denzel Washington tear just come right down the side of my cheek just coming down solely because of what's going on.
Christy Stuber:Mm-hmm. Um,
Ken McKellar:and that opens up some possibilities too.
Christy Stuber:Mm-hmm. That's another takeaway from you.
Ken McKellar:What I like about the book, read the book. What I like about the book is the, the games or the examples, um, like near the end about how you can strengthen this or, I mean, even like party favors. One of them is having a conversation without saying I, I like that. I, I did that with my, a couple of my older daughters and that was. That was fun. I didn't realize how much I said I, so that I liked about, I liked that
Christy Stuber:I actually took one of those games into, um, a group of coaches that I work with and we played with it. And this ties back to that comment that the mentor once said to me about, if you don't laugh, you'll cry. And it was the game called emotional option. So the way I used it with my coaches was I had two coaches stay on the screen and everyone else went away, and then they just started having a conversation about whatever was on their mind. One, one duo talked about ice cream and I would interrupt occasionally and name an emotion, and then they needed to act out the emotion as they kept their conversation going. First of all, it was so much fun for a Tuesday morning. People were laughing and, and that was great. And it reminded us that not everybody expresses emotion in the same way. So at the end, I had the coaches share, what, what did they, the two who had done the exercise share, what did they observe as they switched emotions and then everybody else who was watching, what did they observe? And one of the insights was not everybody shares emotions in the same way. Right. For one family or for one client. Pain is gonna come out through laughter for another one. Pain is gonna come out through tears. And it's not for us to assume or guess, but to ask, you know, what is, what is that laughter about? What are those tears about? I would, I would second what you said and play these games with family and friends and other people.'cause it's fun to laugh and to notice what comes out of it.
Ken McKellar:The, the biggest takeaway, and, and this leads into, you know, the coaching experience is, I mean, the authors talked a lot about kind of what you said earlier, not being pre-read with a response.'cause when you're pre-read, you. The scene goes flat. I think that's the same thing with a coaching session. If I'm pre-read, then it, it limits the options and it can go flat. So really being open to whatever that response is or whatever that comment is, or what my next question is based off of my hearing, that just reinforces. Everything that I believe in about coaching,
Christy Stuber:that's the yes and right, because if I'm pre-read, then I'm already saying no. If I'm not pre-read, if I'm open, I'm saying yes. And then the, and is the question that I'm gonna ask to continue to deepen the insight or the thinking. Yeah. So what are you gonna be taking into your own coaching practice?
Ken McKellar:Well, nothing new. I mean, yes. And you know, really just. Really nothing new. But what I'm going to be taking out of this conversation is they in Tampa, they have on Sundays a improv class that my son was saying, Hey dad, I wanna do that. So I'm, I'm gonna call up scuba Steve and say, Hey listen, let's go on down there to Tampa and uh, let's do this.'cause last time we talked about it was during the COVID and. They really had, they had very few classes, but I want to pretend I'm new for two sessions and take this improv class just to experience it. I'm so looking forward to that.
Christy Stuber:I think that's amazing. I'm looking forward to going back to my class when the summer's over and my schedule slows down a little bit and to continue this. And the thing that I really like about the improv, which is what I'm gonna bring into my coaching, is. The classes are fun, low stakes, fun, and so it ki it the setting normalizes failure, failure in quotes, right? It, it's, it's required that you continue playing and trying things and seeing what works and what doesn't work, and treating it all like an experiment. It's all choices. And I, I feel like as coaches, our job is to hold that space for our clients where we can tell them it's okay to try. To stumble, you know, um, maybe spring doesn't work out, that's okay, but give it a go again. And so I feel like we need, again, I'll speak for myself. I need to develop that acceptance of trying and things not going as I thought and being okay with it.
Ken McKellar:Mm-hmm.
Christy Stuber:Any last words from you, Ken, before we close out for today?
Ken McKellar:No. Think what you said things not going as I thought. I'm thinking, for me, allowing things to go and give less thought to it. Like, where's this supposed to go? Where does, you know, give less thought to it and let it go. Like my conversation with the late great Keith McKeller, because we had no clue where I was going. Matter of fact, we couldn't wait to see where it's going. I was like, oh, where's it going? Is this the end? The end? And it was like we used to play, uh, um, me, me and my three brothers used to play. In the living room room, you had to keep the ball up in the air. So everybody had a tap. Everybody tapped, not the ball, the balloon, you had to keep the balloon up in the air and, and everybody had to order your tap and we'd be messing up the furniture and all that kind of stuff. So everybody had their turn. We, we never knew how it was gonna end. So it was kind of like that, it just really, um, being in that space of just there. So I don't have a thought.
Christy Stuber:I'm thinking about this is what makes you a great coach because you have this ability to be in the moment and to play. And for so many of us, again, speaking for myself, who don't like uncertainty, who want things to be sure and known, it can be so challenging to be in that space. So that's why improv has so been so much fun for me, is to train my brain. It's okay just to let it go and have fun, see where the balloon ends up.
Ken McKellar:So, yes. See how you did that. See what you just did there.
Christy Stuber:Oh, there you go. I shut. Shut me down. So that's yes. And a book that reminded us that laughter, presence and partnership are not extras in coaching. They're essential ingredients. And if you're been curious about improv or how improv could support your coaching, I think we both would highly recommend this book and maybe look for an improv class in your community. And we hope these takeaways have sparked new ideas for your practice and inspired you to dig deeper into this incredible resource. Before we sign off, we wanna thank you for spending your time with us today. Your commitment to learning and growth is what this podcast is all about. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure to subscribe to the Coaching Book Club podcast and on your favorite podcast platform. So you never miss an episode. And we'd love to connect with you on LinkedIn. And if you have a favorite book that you'd like us to talk about, send us a, send us a message. We'd love to hear about it. And who knows, it might be featured in a future episode. Thanks for being part of our community. Until next time, happy coaching.
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