Positive Provocation: Robert Biswas-Diener’s Coaching Ideas That Will Challenge Everything You Know

What if the best coaches are the ones still learning? 🤔

In this episode of The Coaching Book Club, hosts Christy Stuber and Ken McKellar explore Positive Provocation by Robert Biswas-Diener — a refreshingly bold read that dares coaches to challenge convention, embrace discomfort, and grow through curiosity. If you’re ready to think differently about coaching, this one’s for you.

Join us as we dive into key provocations from the book, including: 

✅ Why great coaches never stop evolving — and what that means for your ongoing development
✅ The “coach’s agenda” — how bringing your values into the coaching space can actually empower clients
✅ What happens when we interrupt or use less empathy — and why these ideas might not be as taboo as you think

From ethics and supervision to reflective practice and client relationships, this conversation will stretch your thinking and offer new ways to refine your coaching craft.

Whether you’re a seasoned MCC or new to the profession, this episode delivers powerful insights, real-world reflections, and a playful-yet-deep discussion that proves learning never ends.

🎧 Tune in now to explore how Positive Provocation can push you forward as a coach — in the best way possible.

Transcript

0:11

Welcome to the Coaching Book Club podcast, the show that empowers coaches through books. I'm Kristy Stuber here with my friend and co-host Ken McKeller, and today we're talking about Positive Provocation by Robert Biner. This book was designed by the author to challenge traditional coaching ideas and to spark curiosity. Here's what you can expect in this episode. First, Ken, and I'll start with a quick overview of the book, what it's about, why it matters to us. Next, we'll break down three key takeaways, although Ken, I think with this book there might be more than three. There's a lot to talk about, um, takeaways that stood out to us and share how you can apply these insights to your coaching practice. And finally, we'll explore how these concepts connect to real world coaching challenges to help you build confidence, tackle imposter syndrome, and grow as a coach. Whether you've read this book before or hearing about it for the first time, you'll leave with actionable tools to strengthen your skills. So let's get started. Ken, this was a recommendation from you, probably not a book I would've picked up, uh, first in my list of books to read. Uh, you were really strongly advocating for it. Love to hear about what mattered to you about this book. Yeah, actually one of my colleagues. Judy Road, she had said, Hey Ken, you know, you should check out this book. Um, and I'm like, uh, right. It don't say coaching on it. I don't know. Um, but, uh, man, what I like. Was just that in reading this book, it had me walking around my chair a couple times getting up saying, Ooh, I don't, I don't, how does that do I agree with that, or I don't agree with that, or I'm in line with that. Or, it was really cool when I was like totally against something and I was like, whoa, why am I against, why am I so strongly against it? I must say, one of the things that I did like at the beginning of the book, the author, he tells you, Hey, this is about positive. You know, just look out what you can learn. Look out what you, how you can grow. Like, take your time. Don't eat all this. Don't eat all this cake at one time, just a little bit by little bit so you can grow and, and test it and go out and play with it. And so I did all of that and I really had an opportunity to appreciate his work, his research. I mean, I know he has a coaching school and, and doing some dynamite stuff there as well. So this, this was a book that really helped me'cause it challenged me to do things different and to explain myself to myself in, in many areas. He did a great job as an introduction to explain what he meant by provocation and his goal for the book, which helped me reduce the challenge that I was feeling. I was afraid it was gonna be too challenging for me, and it was gonna make me just, I almost implode with, um, questions and, and wondering, and am I doing it right? And. The provocation he wanted us to think about was how to use these ideas to be exciting and positive, to invite new thinking and to create emotional responses. He wanted us to feel some confusion, surprise, or curiosity. Um, from my perspective, he did that. I think I've also left with more questions. Maybe I do answers at this point. I appreciate how he suggests taking it slowly and I. Need to slow down a bit, and we could probably talk about this book over the next few episodes if we wanted to, because there's so much to digest today. We're just gonna explore your, um, ongoing thinking and my new thinking about this book as we dive into our takeaways. Um, I'm also reminded as I listen to this book of the Rka quote, be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and try to love the questions themself. Perhaps you will then gradually without noticing. Live a long, some distant day into the answer, and that's a quote I've always loved throughout my life, but feels like really hits home for me with this book because I did walk away with so many questions and I think some of those answers will emerge in the next months, years of my coaching journey. So there's 25 provocations, and I'm so curious to hear which ones you thought, um, really stood out to you. So why don't you start with one of your takeaways. First of all, I love that quote. Um, uh, did you send that quote to me? Absolutely. Subscribers. If you want the quote, could you please send us a note saying, Hey, hey Chrissy, go ahead and send us that quote. Send us that quote, send us that quote. You say it three times and she'll send you the quote Right on over. But I definitely want that, that was, I love that. Yeah. We'll make it easier for you. Just go to our LinkedIn page and I'll include it on a post there. Nice. Nice. One of the, one of the things that I like, he, he challenged me a lot, but one of the things he talked about, you know, good coaches, great coaches, and he talked about the coach that doesn't stop coaching, right? The coach that's continuously improving their craft. The coach that is. Looking for ways to better themselves as not only human beings, but how to relate to the person that they're working with. And I have a, I had an opportunity to talk to a lot of different coaches in the coaches, you know, atmosphere, industry, and the great ones are doing that. They are not only coaching, but coaching. And have mentors and supervisors. I talked to one coach that pretty often has a mentor and checks their coaching with the the MCC bars standard and see where she is, what she's hitting, what she's not hitting, just so that just to keep herself sharp. Learn so much, man. As mentors, we get to listen to a lot of folks coach and give feedback and that right there is educational. Particularly when we also, when I also listen to my own stuff too, and it's like, Ooh. Or what's really cool is listening to coaching sessions that I did five or six years ago. Wow. I really said that, or I'm still saying that, you know, that's part of my, that's part of who I am or how I, where I come off. But to me, I mean, he, he didn't, he didn't, this is not anything new that, you know, there's no destination of, of a coach in my mind. You know, in, in my mind, I, I learned no matter where I am, I'm still looking for the opportunity to learn, grow. Hence these books, these conversations. We have in, in front of us. Yeah. Last night when I was reviewing the book, I sent you a quote that he wrote about this and he said, um, the master coaches and he has a lowercase, so not the MCC at the ICF, but the master coaches that Robert knows. Seldom talk about their accomplishments. Instead, they're more likely to talk about their own learning, the new ideas they're playing with, or a new approach that challenges their accepted wisdom. And I really appreciated that. Like I sent this to you and said, this is what I want the podcast to be, that this is what we're doing. It's also to parallel what you just said. You know, even if you are an MCC, which you are, it doesn't mean that you've, you've hit that and now you're done. There's this continual journey. I'm still working towards my MCC and I'm really cognizant that I'm trying to do it in a way that is about learning and integrating. Not just to pass a test, you know, to pass a recording, but to understand the importance of the bars, how they help my clients with their own transformation, and making sure that I'm really then. Applying that. And I agree with you. I think continual learning, especially with mentoring and supervision is, is important for my growth. Yeah. What else? What else did you take away? Which of the questions were most, uh, provocative for you? Well, why ethics are boring. That ethics are not boring for me, I. On ethics like I do, uh, Carmel Macchiato. It's real slow to just enjoy in it. Where is this going? How is this going to sustain me? So we talked about ethics and why they are going. And I bring, I, I kind of bring that up because the ICF starting, uh, later on this week, um, when this, by the time this podcast comes out on April 1st. Has the new ethics that are coming out that has been changed, and they show us what the change are. And that's important really, is to kind of, not only what the ethics are saying, but how they relate to me in my coaching. What part of this, I mean, really looking at this, like what part of this that I agree with that I'm, I'm totally in line with and what part that I'm not and how do I build a relationship? With that part that I'm not in line with. So that it works. A lot of times we look at these ethics and the quote of ethics and say, okay, that is what we have to do maybe, but we still can look at it, how it impacts us and what it means to us and what it's saying to us and how it's speaking to us. And that gives us an opportunity to speak to this supervisor, um, about what's going on because how we digest this. This information impacts the industry. You used a word, um, ethics are sustainable, and it made me think about how the ethical guidelines are not meant to be prohibitive or punitive necessarily, but they, they're used for the coaches to have a sustainable practice. That is appropriate for themselves and their clients. Um, that just really struck me in a different way, rather than thinking of them as like, this is the thing you should do, but it's what you said. It's like, how does this thing guide my practice to make it even better for me and my clients? I, Ken, the takeaway I wanted to talk about is about, um. What if coaches had agendas? That was one of his questions. Um, this really struck me because I feel like I've been told over and over again in coaching education, it's not your agenda, it's the client's agenda. They're driving, they're driving the car, you're in the passenger seat, and I really appreciate it. What he said about us having agendas as coaches in terms of, the way I really thought about it was in terms of the coaching engagement and how the clearer we are about how we want the engagement and the relationship to be, and we set that forward for our clients. Then they know what to expect so they know what they're walking into. We can then make sure we're aligned on that and now we can get in the car. And drive down the road. So if I'm using a metaphor, I'm just thinking about when I drive with my, my beloved, he likes to drive really fast and I don't, and how, you know, if only we had an agreement, how fast we drove before we got in the car, that ride might be more satisfying. Um, so what is it like for my client when they want to, you know, solve a problem and they come to me like, fix my problem? And I'm like, let's explore what's going on. But now we're in the car, we're on the highway and we're not. We're not on the same page. If I can mix my metaphors at all. So having my own agenda of like, here's how I like to work can be really beneficial for the relationship. What do you think? Hmm. No, no, you're right there. You're right there. I mean, not only that, when we think of agendas, we generally go into a coaching session coaching. Our style of coaching, how we was taught, what we know. Right. Robert says that's, that's your agenda, Ken. Mm-hmm. I don't say, well, what, what kind of, what kind of, what kind of coaching do you like? One of the things I've been talking about is the care model that is collaborative action, reflective education and empathy. And that relates to the very first question that we ask in the coaching session. One of the first question we ask is, what do you wanna work on? But after we ask that. As a coach, we're thinking, how does this person wanna work on this? Like, is this session going to be more of a collaborative type of session? You kind of know what you wanna do. You wanna bite things, feed things off of each other. Is it more action oriented? You want to know the steps. Do you want take the steps? Is it going to be more reflective like a session of. What are some of your options? Or is it going to be empathetic where emotions may be involved? Do you just need to vent or say something, or is it education? I don't know how to go about these steps, so I need to find some, I need some education to take my first steps like that is how does the client want to navigate that space would be who's leading and when we ask. Not necessarily ask how do you wanna navigate the space, but when we're cognizant of how the client wants to proceed and where they want to go, then we're giving up some of that. And I'm thinking about, gosh, how powerful would it be if you did give the client the choice and say, here's the types of coaching sessions you might experience with me. Coach Ken. It might be a caring session, it might be an education session. It might be, so maybe when you come in the session, think about what you need and what if a client come in and say, oh, I really need an education session to understand whatever, or, I really need to be heard. But the, I think the key, I don't know if that's right or wrong. I'm not even gonna go there necessarily. I think for me the key is like, is it okay for the coach to say that? Then for the client to know, oh, okay, when I work with this coach, this is how, um, they like to work and this is what I might wanna think about what I need in each coaching session. Man, that really puts a lot of the direction of driving on the coachee. They have opportunities. I know what I'm talking about and how I wanna talk about, can I just wanna collab with you a little bit. We can collab. Yeah, I like that. The other thing, the other thing that I like, one of his provocation. Why? Why the one we talked about, you know, why ask Why is what he says. And that pro provocation, and I was like, you know, I stay away from why I'm not scared of it, but I stay away from why because. I know why I can come off, like when I am two ways know, I'm talking to my daughter and it's like, why, why on earth would you come down these steps without making your bed? Right? You know that, that, you know that that's. She gotta make up a story, an opportunity to get together her lies or whatever. Like a lot of stuff is coming up, judgment is coming up with all that kind of stuff, right? And so I think when we talk about why, I think that's what we lean on. But there's other kind of whys too. You know? I mean that why a pure curiosity, you know that why, where it is almost partnering. Mm-hmm. Hey. You came down the steps and the bed's not done, why do you do that before you come down the steps? So the tonality, the position of the Y, the, even if it's just a telephone, a conversation, definitely tonality in pauses, but as a visual conversation. It's the, the, the look of really, like, I'm curious, right? That comes off a little, little different, but it's safe to stay away from why altogether, why are we taken away from opportunity to help the client explore their own, what's his name? Simon Sinek. Their own y. I also think about the ways that I've tried to phrase questions in coaching sessions to avoid the why and how those questions sometimes can get so jumbled up with me trying to dance around that word. I. And then the look on my client's face, like, what are you asking me? And then I'll just say, so why is this a problem? Whatever it might be. But to your point, like using the right tone, using the right mannerism, using all the good stuff so they know it's not an attack, um, it's just clearer. And so then easier for their brains. Going back to brains like we talked about in Lisa Felman Barrett's episode, to understand what I'm trying to say, rather than try to like decipher my dancing around that word. And, and also the person that you're talking to, what's their use? What's their understanding? I mean, some cultures will say, Hey, you know what? That's judgmental, but some that may be just the way they talk. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm not sure why I do that. If I can understand why I do that, then I think this would really be a very powerful session. What I done use why twice in that sentence? Why would I stay away from it? It's the third time, Ken. There's so many more. I mean, I have so many more takeaways. I'm sure you do. And we wanted to keep our session, our podcast episodes on the shorter side. So I think we need to wrap up for today. What, um, what are you gonna experiment with to use another one of his provocations in your coach practice from what you've read? You know what? There's one that I'm not gonna experiment with, but I'm gonna play with in my heart, and that is, what does he say? What if we use empathy less? I, I, I'm still struggling with that. Uh, Robert, if you're listening to this episode, could you please reach out to me? I've been trying to contact you about this one right here. Use empathy less. I think he does a really good job explaining it in the book. Please read the book. And that is, what number is that one? Lemme pull up my book and see if I can find it quickly. Um. Empathy is provocation number 16. What if we used less empathy provocation number 16, what if we use less empathy? Yeah, check that one out because I mean, you know what? I'm gonna read it again and I'm gonna think about that one because I mean, out of all this stuff, it was really easy for me to play with and kind of experiment with and have fun with and grow. This one I just totally shut down. I mean, just wasn't even really trying to hear it at all. But now that I have to talk to you about it out loud, I'm still struggling. Sounds the question needs to sit in your heart a little bit longer. Maybe the answer will emerge. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. Mine are a little more concrete. Mine are more things I've been already thinking about, which is how do I set up my expectations with my clients, especially new clients or people who are considering me as their coach? Um. So I really wanna revisit my messaging, both, you know, on my website, in my communications, as well as how I'm speaking, and specifically around interruptions, because we didn't get to talk about that one today. But boy, am I challenged by interrupting people. I know the benefits. I get it in my head and it still feels so rude to me. So I wanna try to figure out if I set that up as an expectation so my clients know it might happen, how does that help give me permission? To to do it to their benefit. So any last words, Ken, before we finish up to the interruption? What I liked about what he talked about interruption is the different types of interruptions. Mm-hmm. Right? And when he broke it down like that, I was like, Ooh, that was really helpful. And the different types are, read the book. Well, there you go. So, so that wraps up our discussion today on positive provocation. Uh, we've uncovered some powerful insights from setting clear expectations to, um, interruptions, to empathy, and the way we might think about using these in our coaching practice. We hope these takeaways have sparked new ideas for your practice. Inspired you to dig deeper into this incredible resource of a book. And if you enjoyed today's episode, make sure to subscribe to the Coaching Book Club on Spotify and Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. We'd also love to connect with you on LinkedIn, follow us for even more coaching insights, quotes and updates about upcoming episodes. Hey, we're always in the lookout for new books to review, so if you have a favorite coaching book that's made an impact on you, send us an email at Coaching Book club@christiestuber.com. Then who knows, it might be featured in a future episode. Thanks for being part of our community, and I tell next time, happy coaching.